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Author Topic: Sailor Vee  (Read 187 times)
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Greg
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« on: August 18, 2011, 05:00:02 AM »

Anyway.  I do catch a little info about some process of who the candidate will be for the Republicans in 2012.  I don't vote in this system.  If you people elect these candidates you have no right to complain.  You participated in this system, and it has functioned to place the candidate with the most votes into office.  You elected them or voted for the other candidate.  You can now live with it.  Congratulations.

But here's my point today:  One of the candidates gave this speech about how "...we are a nation that has values. We are a nation that was built on a moral enterprise. And states don't have a right to tramp over those because of the 10th Amendment." 

I'm not kidding.  They all say this btw.  But what he was talking about was how wrong gay marriage is.  That's fine.  Oppose it.  Fight for a cause.  Everyone will so much better off if gays can't marry.

He said this nation is a moral enterprise but didn't talk about how this country supports and condones torture.
I just talked to a person who was overseas for over a year in a position of some authority and told me how we support torture.  If I am aware of it, then so is every candidate running in this one-party system.  No mention of it as a moral issue.

So, my friends, we'll just have to carry on.


(I'll bet most of you agree with that first paragraph don't you?)

I didn't notice the color changing option.  I hope it worked.  Cool.
« Last Edit: August 18, 2011, 05:08:42 AM by Greg » Logged
Rory Storm
Johnny & the Moondogs
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Posts: 75


« Reply #1 on: August 18, 2011, 09:50:43 AM »

George Carlin did a bit about just this very gripe about no one fairly decent to even choose from in his HBO special "Life is Worth Losing",out on dvd.He said,and I'm paraphrasing here,"these people come from American schools,business,churches,etc.This is it folks,the best we can do.He griped about peoplel telling him he had no right to complain if he didn't vote,which is bul*** for two reasons.One-there's no one to vote FOR that will truly be good and nothing but for the country and two-like the pervious post just said,its the voteers that put these cretons in there.We need to find a way to get someone closer,I mean truly CLOSER to the constituents and their deserts as citizens,someone who can truly sympathize if not empathize with us.Carlin also did another bit about what baloney it is that we're told "your vote counts".BALDERDASH!!President #43 STOLE an election AND a re-election!!It's alll in the special interests,brother...And Michelle Bachman getting Elvis' death mixed up with his birth.Now,do you want someone that ignorant in the White House.Don't even get me started on Sarah Palin.John Cleese said she talks like a parrot.BRAVO!I think she reminds me of an easy closing time pick up.Look at her eyes in the news.Such a shallow and empty gaze.Brother,I don't know.I don't think she's all there myself.
« Last Edit: August 18, 2011, 09:54:33 AM by Rory Storm » Logged
Greg
Guest
« Reply #2 on: August 18, 2011, 11:10:46 AM »

Yeah that Carlin bit is something else isn't it?  It's funny and borders on not funny because it has such a ring of truth to it.

(I'm going to add this:  I'm not sure what time my original post was, but it had to be very early in the morning/late at night.  That was the only post I have ever made where I had had more than a few drinks.  The band practiced late, and I was, perhaps, drinking somewhat.  Practice is at my house, so I did not drive.  I did post under the influence though.)
« Last Edit: August 18, 2011, 11:17:31 AM by Greg » Logged
Rory Storm
Johnny & the Moondogs
**
Posts: 75


« Reply #3 on: August 18, 2011, 01:45:19 PM »

Don't worry about it.The post was fine.And by the way,the color went terrific!(I don't know if you remember,but you posted that you hoped you "did the color thing right")
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Roger SB
The Silver Beatles
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Posts: 139



« Reply #4 on: August 19, 2011, 11:07:38 AM »

Your post was an opinion and is your right.

Quote
Anyway.  I do catch a little info about some process of who the candidate will be for the Republicans in 2012.  I don't vote in this system.  If you people elect these candidates you have no right to complain.  You participated in this system, and it has functioned to place the candidate with the most votes into office.  You elected them or voted for the other candidate.  You can now live with it.  Congratulations.

i do disagree with you here, Greg. Whether or not you participate in the voting process, the end result is still going to happen. Even if you are "outside this system", you and everyone who lives in this country has to live with that result. One cannot divorce oneself from the result by simply not participating. We are in agreement, more or less, after that. If we live in a country that supports torture(or any other enterprise, good or bad) then we bear some culpability as a result.

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Greg
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« Reply #5 on: August 19, 2011, 08:21:53 PM »

I say. RogerSB, point taken.  It was a drunken rave, and I appreciate you considering the view and comments.  Your post was in, what I feel is, the true spirit of this board; you came and gave some comments and opinions.  You didn't come on with the usual "You are Wrong.  Let Me Tell You Why." approach.

This is a super-long and involved issue.  I disagree with a few of your points but will just send my thanks for the considerate input.
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Greg
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« Reply #6 on: August 21, 2011, 10:34:36 AM »

I think this is from Reason Magazine.  btw It isn't an alcohol-related post.  haha.  Also, as you know, I like to read alternative views on my views.  Please remember that I just usually thank the person no matter what they say on opposing views.

Maybe it should be called Un-Reasonable Magazine.   0125-mmm

...thus, the act of voting has no possible direct personal benefit, even if you actually wholeheartedly support everything you expect from a candidate. But your expectations, as George W. "no nation building" Bush has proven most recently, will have little relation to what the candidate will actually do.

This casts strong doubts on the fallback position of the dedicated voter: that even if it isn't decisive, voting is expressive, a way to feel part of the larger community, to add one small voice to a loud chorus of cheering. But remember: with politicians, you don't even really know what you are cheering for.

Defending non-voting in bars across this great land, I often hear the ultimate "shut up"—that if you don't vote, you have no right to complain about politics or society. The reality is the exact opposite: By voting, you are playing a game whose rules are that the majority vote winner gets to control the reins of government, in all its unspeakable power. If you complain about the results of the game you chose to play, you're just being a sore loser—or winner.

But what if you believe that neither "winnable" candidate deserves power? Or that the whole game of majority-rule giving someone all the powers of the modern American state to wage war, arrest, tax, and regulate is inherently illegitimate? Then, don't vote, and complain all you want.

No American is responsible for the voting behavior of our countrymen; so don't worry for a moment about what would happen "if everyone thought that way"? (If you did control thousands of votes, the math might make it worth voting. But you don't.) We each have only one vote, and only one November 2, 2004, in our precious lives.

So, this November 2, do the right thing for America: go to work and do a good job. Clean up some garbage on your street. Help a neighbor out. Call your mother, for goodness' sakes.

Sure, actually doing something specific and practical to better your life, or your community, isn't as easy as casting a ballot once every couple of years. But it is more rewarding in the end than wasting even a second of your time and energy giving yourself a struck-by-lightning chance of maybe putting one particular guy in an office, where he'll do whatever he wants regardless of what you thought you were trying to support by voting for him. If you want to make a difference in the world, please try. But don't be fooled into thinking voting is a way to do so.
« Last Edit: August 21, 2011, 10:39:04 AM by Greg » Logged
Roger SB
The Silver Beatles
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Posts: 139



« Reply #7 on: August 21, 2011, 02:39:48 PM »

Bravo to you, sir...i so enjoy discourse with thinking people, especially when it is considerate. The art of friendly disagreement is becoming an endangered species. I think the nice article you posted illustrates your point well and sort of addresses the point I was getting at: That no matter if you voted or not, the end result affects every one of us, not just the people who voted for either candidate. That might be democracy's biggest drawback: It's not easy to register an effective complaint. Don't vote? Does it matter in the end?

I really liked the end of the piece:

Quote
So, this November 2, do the right thing for America: go to work and do a good job. Clean up some garbage on your street. Help a neighbor out. Call your mother, for goodness' sakes.

Laudible goals all!
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chris
The Threetles
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Posts: 587



« Reply #8 on: August 23, 2011, 09:59:31 PM »

nicely done, guys. talking about big boy subjects like grown ups.

personally, i vote every 4 years. i like to feel as if i am part of the system. my vote may very well be inconsequencial, but i do it anyway. i do agree that you forfeit your right to complain if you didn't express your own voice. or at the very least, i forfeit my right to listen to you complain. but is that really fair?

i can state that ideally i am left of center (this does seem to be a left leaning forum, according to my tailor, anywho) but rare is the politician i vote for (or vote against) that i do not end up disappointed with. so maybe voting is a just a way to make me feel involved. or, even sadder, maybe it's just a way to prove you had an opinion.   

which segues nicely into my next point...

we don't really live in a democracy. lets say there are 20 of us forum posters in a room together. we get hungry. someone asks, what should we get to eat? lets see a show of hands. we'll have a vote. majority rules. is it agreed on? it is. 4 of us want pizza. 3 of us want chinese food. 5 want mexican. 4 want soup and sandwiches. and 4 want burgers. so...mexican food recieved the most votes. this means we agree to eat mexican food, right? because majority rules. but that means 15 of us are eating what we do not want. that leaves 5 of us happy to get what we want and 15 of us disappointed. not unlike voting politicians for office i'd say.

nice metaphor, huh? 
« Last Edit: August 23, 2011, 10:02:56 PM by chris » Logged

sometimes i'd rather run and hide...than stay to face the fear inside...
2 of 3
Global Moderator
The Threetles
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Posts: 1758



« Reply #9 on: August 23, 2011, 10:30:10 PM »

Nicely done chris.  beer

The other thing they could do is make any election invalid if the percentage of eligible voters is below a certain number. So if candidate Smith beats candidate Jones in an election, but only 40% of eligible voters turned out...then that means 60% of the population didn't like either candidate. So we start over. Ok, maybe that sounds dumb, but you get the idea.
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It's Better to have No Taste, than Bad Taste.
Greg
Guest
« Reply #10 on: August 23, 2011, 10:50:04 PM »

chris, 2 of 3, excellent points.  It's amazing that the system keeps dragging on the way it has.  Changes are needed.  If these changes come maybe Paul and I will decide to vote.   laughing
« Last Edit: August 24, 2011, 12:17:35 AM by Greg » Logged
mervap
Administrator
The Threetles
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Posts: 1965



« Reply #11 on: August 24, 2011, 04:16:12 AM »

Quote
we don't really live in a democracy. lets say there are 20 of us forum posters in a room together. we get hungry. someone asks, what should we get to eat? lets see a show of hands. we'll have a vote. majority rules. is it agreed on? it is. 4 of us want pizza. 3 of us want chinese food. 5 want mexican. 4 want soup and sandwiches. and 4 want burgers. so...mexican food recieved the most votes. this means we agree to eat mexican food, right?

You're not suggesting we EAT the politicians, are you?  laughing laughing laughing
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"If Love is blind, how will it ever find a way?"
Rory Storm
Johnny & the Moondogs
**
Posts: 75


« Reply #12 on: August 24, 2011, 09:41:23 AM »

I'm afraid Greg,your analogy is not properly thought out.Ina room full of gurgling stomachs,there's no reason why everyone can't have what they want.This is not so in the naitonal political arena.With most things,you MUST make a decision as social standards and values must remain a constant or chaos may ensue.The problem we have that has always existed is a particular elitist gourp of peoples who have the ability to control voting issues and elections themselves arer always stirring the pot most self inddulgently in order to satisfy the agendas of themsleves personally or of their respective business entities.If you had injected the element of say there's only enough gas in the car to go one way for one kind of food,I would still apply my above reasoning in my response.Let's put it this way.In the latter set of circumstance,the government would OWN the car.Just as they "own the car" with jsut about eerything in real life.So guess what always happens.You got it.What happens is what THEY want to happen.Not "The People"(chuckle chuckle)No.what THEY want.
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